Joy of Reinvention

Liat Ben-Zur: So I, I, I really do
think that AI creates the most business

Liat Ben-Zur: value when the work changes, when you're
willing to rethink your workflows,

Liat Ben-Zur: not just when you can demo a tool.

Joy Chik: Welcome back to Joy of
Reinvention, and this is where we

Joy Chik: recognize knowing moments, make bold
choices, and share the journey and the

Joy Chik: wisdom that power our transformation.

Joy Chik: I'm your host, Joy Chik.

Joy Chik: My guest today is Liat Ben-Zur.

Joy Chik: Liat and I worked together at
Microsoft, including our shared

Joy Chik: push towards a passwordless future.

Joy Chik: And today, she is an advisor and serves on
several public and private company boards.

Joy Chik: She has also just published her new book,
The Bias Advantage: How Unconventional

Joy Chik: Leaders Gain Power in an AI-Driven World.

Joy Chik: Big congrats for publishing the book.

Joy Chik: I remember when you and I had a coffee.

Joy Chik: I remember you said, "Oh, I would
just love like a coup- a few people

Joy Chik: to buy the book, and I'll be happy."

Joy Chik: And I think you way underestimate,
like, how meaningful this book has

Joy Chik: been and, uh, you know, congrats on
publishing and all the successes so far.

Joy Chik: I'm sure that, uh, there will
be big successes ahead of you

Joy Chik: that you couldn't even imagine.

Joy Chik: So let's talk- Thank you … a
little bit about your book, The Bias

Joy Chik: Advantage: How Unconventional Leaders
Gain Power in an AI-Driven World.

Joy Chik: So let's talk about, so what
is the, uh, Bias Advantage?

Liat Ben-Zur: Well, The Bias Advantage
really came from something I started

Liat Ben-Zur: noticing over and over in my own career.

Liat Ben-Zur: Um, and that is when you, when you
don't always fit the traditional mold,

Liat Ben-Zur: especially as an executive in corporate
America, you know, for me, 20 years

Liat Ben-Zur: in, in semiconductor industry, and
then, and then in health tech, and

Liat Ben-Zur: then at Microsoft, you, you learn to
think and operate a bit differently.

Liat Ben-Zur: That you can't assume the
system is gonna work for you.

Liat Ben-Zur: And so, you know, I picked up what
a lot of folks call soft skills.

Liat Ben-Zur: I, I learned how to read a room.

Liat Ben-Zur: I learned how power actually
works, which is often different

Liat Ben-Zur: from what the org chart says.

Liat Ben-Zur: Um, I learned how to influence people
that I didn't manage, because oftentimes

Liat Ben-Zur: that's the most critical thing.

Liat Ben-Zur: Um, I got very comfortable figuring things
out without a playbook, because often I

Liat Ben-Zur: was given, you know, the new things where,
you know, you're either gonna fall off

Liat Ben-Zur: the cliff or you're gonna figure it out.

Liat Ben-Zur: Um, and for years I, I thought
those were the things I had to

Liat Ben-Zur: learn just to survive, right?

Liat Ben-Zur: I, I just…

Liat Ben-Zur: I always felt that I had to work twice
as hard and prove myself twice as much

Liat Ben-Zur: to get to the same platform as others,
'cause I d- I wasn't always taken

Liat Ben-Zur: seriously, maybe because of h- how
I look or, or how I talk or whatnot.

Liat Ben-Zur: But ironically, all of these
things that I had to do

Liat Ben-Zur: turned out to build a set of muscle,
a set of skills that I think are more

Liat Ben-Zur: important than ever in AI leadership.

Liat Ben-Zur: It's, it's, it's a very ironic
twist and, and that's what The

Liat Ben-Zur: Bias Advantage is all about.

Liat Ben-Zur: Some of the capabilities that we
developed because we didn't fit the old

Liat Ben-Zur: system may be exactly the capabilities
that organizations need as the system

Liat Ben-Zur: is changing today, and the system
is changing at an unprecedented pace

Liat Ben-Zur: today in very, very massive ways.

Liat Ben-Zur: Organizations are changing, hierarchies
are changing, and leadership is changing.

Liat Ben-Zur: And so, you know What
are those skills like?

Liat Ben-Zur: A-a-and, and that's
what the book is about.

Liat Ben-Zur: The book goes into it in quite some
detail, but I'll, I'll maybe I'll

Liat Ben-Zur: share with you some of the, some of
the capabilities that are becoming

Liat Ben-Zur: important in these AI-first organizations.

Liat Ben-Zur: So the first one is, is, is
judgment, and that's really about

Liat Ben-Zur: knowing when the data is technically
right, but it might be leading you

Liat Ben-Zur: towards the wrong decision, right?

Liat Ben-Zur: Maybe the model is predicting which
employees are most likely to leave.

Liat Ben-Zur: Um, do you automatically spend
your retention dollars on them?

Liat Ben-Zur: A good leader needs to ask, you
know, what is the data maybe missing?

Liat Ben-Zur: Or who the model may be overlooking?

Liat Ben-Zur: What are the second and third-order
consequences of that decision?

Liat Ben-Zur: Whether retention is even the problem we
should be solving for those employees.

Liat Ben-Zur: Um, so judgment is a leadership
skill that I think all executives

Liat Ben-Zur: would nod their head and agree that
they have or think that they have.

Liat Ben-Zur: With AI, it's very poignant that
there is a, there is a set of, of

Liat Ben-Zur: judgment that you need to be able
to discern when to trust the machine

Liat Ben-Zur: and when not to trust the machine.

Liat Ben-Zur: Um, and that is a very powerful
soft skill that's hard to measure.

Liat Ben-Zur: The second one is systems thinking.

Liat Ben-Zur: I think, you know, that's about being
able to see what does a decision set

Liat Ben-Zur: in motion across complex systems.

Liat Ben-Zur: If AI cuts product development time in
half, what becomes a new bottleneck?

Liat Ben-Zur: Can sales absorb twice as many launches?

Liat Ben-Zur: Can your supply chain keep up?

Liat Ben-Zur: Does your budget process still make sense?

Liat Ben-Zur: Fixing one constraint often exposes
another, and what I see a lot in

Liat Ben-Zur: leadership right now is you have these
leaders who are very good at like, you

Liat Ben-Zur: know, they've been a finance leader
for twenty years, or they've been

Liat Ben-Zur: a marketer for twenty-five years.

Liat Ben-Zur: They, they think in their silos.

Liat Ben-Zur: AI cuts across silos, and if you're
not as systems thinking, if you aren't

Liat Ben-Zur: able to connect the dots and see those
ramifications, that's, um, a, a limitation

Liat Ben-Zur: in, in, in leadership for the AI era.

Liat Ben-Zur: The third one is empathy, and that
is seeing the person behind the data.

Liat Ben-Zur: So AI is gonna deliver you a risk score.

Liat Ben-Zur: A leader needs to see the patient who
isn't getting treatment or the employee

Liat Ben-Zur: who never makes the promotion slate.

Liat Ben-Zur: Um, you know, AI sees what we
tell it to measure, but a leader

Liat Ben-Zur: needs to see everything else.

Liat Ben-Zur: And as AI starts to make more and more
critical decisions, um, about hiring,

Liat Ben-Zur: about finances, about loans, about
healthcare, about all these things

Liat Ben-Zur: It is more important than ever that
we have leaders with high empathy who

Liat Ben-Zur: can see the people behind that data.

Liat Ben-Zur: Um, and we're already seeing all
kinds of consequential examples of

Liat Ben-Zur: what happens when we don't do that.

Liat Ben-Zur: And then, of course, courage.

Liat Ben-Zur: I think that might be one of the rarest
and most important skills, which is

Liat Ben-Zur: really the willingness to say, "The model
is wrong," or, "We're optimizing to the

Liat Ben-Zur: wrong thing," or, "We need to slow down."

Liat Ben-Zur: Especially when everyone else is
pushing to move faster or when you're

Liat Ben-Zur: getting pressure from your board,
"I wanna see how are you using AI?

Liat Ben-Zur: What's that?"

Liat Ben-Zur: But the, the willingness to
stand up against, I think, the,

Liat Ben-Zur: the current and ask the critical
questions takes a lot of courage.

Joy Chik: You know,
the-- I can't agree more.

Joy Chik: Like, especially now AI kinda commoditized
all the technologies in a way that

Joy Chik: really drive the intent, right?

Joy Chik: The AI is here to support and
help in terms of drive the

Joy Chik: outcome, not the other way around.

Joy Chik: So that judgment, that system thinking,
empathy, and, uh, um, you know, all that,

Joy Chik: those skills and the courage even just
to say, "Wait, AI may not be going do

Joy Chik: the thing we want to do," is so critical.

Joy Chik: So I can't agree more.

Joy Chik: So Liat, so what do you think really
separate organization that turn

Joy Chik: AI into real business outcome from
those actually just stay stuck with?

Liat Ben-Zur: Yeah.

Liat Ben-Zur: Um, the, the organizations that get it
right, that are really driving impact

Liat Ben-Zur: with AI, they start with a business
problem, a very specific and clear

Liat Ben-Zur: business problem, not the AI tool.

Liat Ben-Zur: I, I, I walk into a bunch of these
companies, and they're running

Liat Ben-Zur: dozens of AI pilots, and they're
infatuated with, like, tools.

Liat Ben-Zur: "Oh…"

Liat Ben-Zur: And then I'll ask, "So what business
result are you trying to change?

Liat Ben-Zur: Tell me what you're measuring, the before
and after, and what's your target?"

Liat Ben-Zur: And it's very g- it, it doesn't take
much time to quickly discern which

Liat Ben-Zur: companies are getting it right and
which companies are lost, um, and,

Liat Ben-Zur: and they're just on a treadmill.

Liat Ben-Zur: You'll hear answers about saving,
you know, this team five hours

Liat Ben-Zur: a week, or, "I'm helping to
save Joey two hours a day."

Liat Ben-Zur: And those are fine, but they don't tie
to your P&L or your business results.

Liat Ben-Zur: So if you're not measuring the
right things, your AI experiments

Liat Ben-Zur: are, are not gonna move the needle.

Liat Ben-Zur: If you cannot clearly articulate
what business problem you're solving

Liat Ben-Zur: with this AI and what's your from to.

Liat Ben-Zur: Um, you know, if you're using
AI in customer service, tell me

Liat Ben-Zur: what you're trying to improve.

Liat Ben-Zur: Are you trying to reduce the time
it takes to resolve an issue?

Liat Ben-Zur: Are you trying to increase
your customer satisfaction?

Liat Ben-Zur: Are you trying to handle twice as
many customers with the same team?

Liat Ben-Zur: Each one of those has
different, uh, tactics and, and

Liat Ben-Zur: success measurements for AI.

Liat Ben-Zur: So let's first understand what
business metrics you need to move,

Liat Ben-Zur: then we can talk about AI, right?

Liat Ben-Zur: Then you ask what, what are the AI
tools that will solve that problem.

Liat Ben-Zur: The companies that are getting
value from AI are very clear about

Liat Ben-Zur: what they wanna change, um, and
they're willing to, to change the

Liat Ben-Zur: workflows themselves to get there.

Liat Ben-Zur: They're not just trying to plug a tool.

Liat Ben-Zur: So I, I, I really do think that
AI creates the most business value

Liat Ben-Zur: when the work changes, when you're
willing to rethink your workflows,

Liat Ben-Zur: not just when you can demo a tool.

Joy Chik: There are just so many
conversations about, oh, is AI

Joy Chik: gonna drive s- what percentage
efficiency or productivity?

Joy Chik: The classic example is like, oh, like,
like in the beginning when AI can, you

Joy Chik: know, write so much pull request and
write so much code, but at the other

Joy Chik: receiving end, if you still have a
human to do all the code reviews, or

Joy Chik: you don't have the test harness to make
sure- That's right … whatever's been

Joy Chik: written is actually create the right
outcome from, you know, the product

Joy Chik: perspective, it's kind of, uh, pointless.

Joy Chik: It frankly- Exactly … drives
more inefficiency.

Liat Ben-Zur: And, and anyone that tells
you, anyone that tells you, like, "Tell

Liat Ben-Zur: me what is the AI that's gonna cut my
headcount," if that's their goal, their

Liat Ben-Zur: goal is to cut headcount and efficiencies,
they al- also already are not on-

Liat Ben-Zur: Totally … the right wavelength of AI.

Liat Ben-Zur: Yeah, yeah.

Liat Ben-Zur: Because the most valuable thing of
AI when we talk about increasing

Liat Ben-Zur: efficiencies or, or, or margins is not
the headcount, it, it is absolutely

Liat Ben-Zur: the growth side of the equation.

Joy Chik: That's right.

Joy Chik: And frankly, I would say these days,
we went from, "Let's just use as

Joy Chik: many tokens as possible," to, "Oh my
gosh, I'm token maximizing," and look

Joy Chik: at what the cost of, um, you know,
using a- as these frontier models.

Joy Chik: And you could even argue, right, like,
uh, whether AI actually is driving

Joy Chik: actually dollar efficiency or not, if
that's all you look at, versus exactly

Joy Chik: to your point, you're really looking
at what is the business outcome that

Joy Chik: AI can accomplish that otherwise you
cannot accomplish with human, period.

Joy Chik: If you look at that lens, it
really changes the equation.

Joy Chik: Liat's advisory practice and her new
book made this feel very concrete.

Joy Chik: The Bias Advantage exists because
she decided the idea mattered,

Joy Chik: protected the work, and put her name
on it, and brought it into the world.

Joy Chik: This is Joy of Reinvention.

Joy Chik: I'm Joy Chik.

Joy Chik: If today's conversation resonated with
you, please subscribe and share it

Joy Chik: with someone who may be ready to bet on
themselves, and you can also join our

Joy Chik: community at joyofreinvention.com/email.

Joy Chik: Until next time, know the
moment, choose boldly, keep

Joy Chik: reinventing, and share the wisdom.